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Skid Flip Layout
  #1  
Old 04-13-2009, 07:42 AM
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Skid Flip Layout

I found this on hammer's website. Would this be exclusive to Hammer balls and cores, or could this layout be used on any ball?

Also, there seems to be some confusion about skid/flip. We are constantly told that skid/flip isn't created by how you drill the ball, but by how the cover is surfaced. If that is the case, then why does Hammer and other's include the skid/flip layout in their drilling instructions?

Layout 1 - Skid/Flip Layouts

  • Ball Motion - Length with sharp breakpoint and aggressive backend
  • Lane Condition - Medium to Heavy Oil
  • Flare Potential - Medium
  • Pin Placement - Place pin at 5 1/2" from the positive axis point (PAP)
  • Mass Bias - Place Mass Bias in the strong position
  • Balance Hole - If needed, place the balance hole at 4" from the center of span on a line through the center of gravity


Re: Skid Flip Layout
  #2  
Old 04-13-2009, 09:25 AM
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Re: Skid Flip Layout

I believe this drill in combination with the hot sauce's/bwp pearlized coverstock produce the most dramatic skid/flip reaction for this ball.

If the coverstock/drilling doesn't allow the ball to get to the end of oil before it starts it's roll, then it isn't truly a skid flip. Oil breakdown also has a pretty dramatic effect on this type of drilling. I notice it's extremely hard to keep my equipment in the 1-3 when their isn't enough oil.

Re: Skid Flip Layout
  #3  
Old 04-13-2009, 09:38 AM
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Re: Skid Flip Layout

That makes sense. So in other words, the drill is for the general reaction, i.e. skid/flip, but the core and cover prep will determine the severity of said skid/flip? And of course the person throwing it properly to get that reaction.

Re: Skid Flip Layout
  #4  
Old 04-13-2009, 10:22 AM
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Re: Skid Flip Layout

not to mention the ball's tendency towards that kind of motion... which is why you should choose a ball based on the reaction you'd like to get, and not rely totally on the layout to 'create' a reaction.

Re: Skid Flip Layout
  #5  
Old 04-13-2009, 09:57 PM
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Re: Skid Flip Layout

only meno is allowed to comment on such things
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Re: Skid Flip Layout
  #6  
Old 04-13-2009, 10:10 PM
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Re: Skid Flip Layout

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only meno is allowed to comment on such things
+1 lol
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Re: Skid Flip Layout
  #7  
Old 04-13-2009, 10:12 PM
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Re: Skid Flip Layout

This would only be for high Mass Bias balls, like the Black Widow series. Pin from PAP placements 2 inches to 5 inches will still amount in a lot of flare.

Using a symetrical shaped core the ball may get to much length. This might go to long for balls with LMB or like the Hot Sauce.
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Re: Skid Flip Layout
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Old 04-14-2009, 01:24 AM
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Re: Skid Flip Layout

Meno, i have a question related to this. Basically, the Pin distance to PAP controls the length of the ball, and the MB controls the shape of the break point, is that correct?
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Re: Skid Flip Layout
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Old 04-14-2009, 01:55 AM
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Re: Skid Flip Layout

Certain balls are better suited to certain reactions and certain drillings are too. The major determinants of reaction are coverstock, surface prep, RG, drill pattern....perhaps in that order.

So yes, drill patterns affect reaction, but ball selection for the reaction you want to achieve is more important than drill pattern. Drilling is a tweak to the reaction.

A high RG pearl ball will get into a roll farther down the lane, retain energy longer, and be more angular than a low RG solid or particle ball. On drier oil patterns, it will be more skid snap, but on floods, it may not move at all or may not be able to handle carrydown.

Take that same high RG pearl and drill it with a short pin to pap distance, high VAL angle, and high drilling angle and it will roll earlier than it would with most other drillings, but it will still be a skid snap ball.
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Re: Skid Flip Layout
  #10  
Old 04-15-2009, 10:45 AM
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Re: Skid Flip Layout

I think the biggest issue and cause of confusion is that there are two sides of the equation that aren't usually put together when discussing it.

One side talks about just drilling layouts for specific reactions like the skid/flip.
The other side talks about the balls characteristics being in line for specific drill layouts, as well as cover prep to accomplish that.

If when talking about this, they would put all of it together at the same time like we are now, I think it would be easier for people to understand and make sense of.

I think that the other point of confusion comes from the information on drill sheets. Lane #1 for example lists stacked, label, cg out leverage, etc. People associate stacked with skid/flip, hockey stick shape backend, label with the banana shape backend, and cg out leverage as smooth even arching backend. No where does it say anything about individual balls being better suited for different drills, or the proper cover prep to make balls do what they are supposed to according to that layout. And the same goes for all companies.

When people here or over at Lane #1 forum ask what drill would give them a skid/flip reaction, people usually jump in and say go with stacked and give their favorite cover prep that works well for them. Most will associate cover adjustment with getting more or less length and stronger or weaker reaction, and not see the importance the cover prep has with making the actual drill layout such as skid/flip work.

From what I am gathering, I think it's all somewhat important, but not so significant as to lose sleep over it. In my opinion you can take a ball with skid/flip characteristics, drill it for skid/flip, and it's going to skid/flip no matter what the cover surface is. Duller is going to roll sooner and hook harder, 1000 - 4000 grit polished is going to go longer and not hook quite as hard. I just don't see where the surface prep is so much more important than the drill layout when it comes to a ball doing what it is drilled for. If a ball isn't drilled for a certain reaction, the surface prep alone isn't going to give it that reaction. I think the cover prep allows the ball to get to the breakpoint and covers the skid part as far as getting it down the lane to the breakpoint, and the drill layout gives it the flip on the backend at the breakpoint. But if the surface isn't right to get it down the lane before it breaks and it breaks way to early, it's still flipping as per the drill, just not skidding far enough to get to the breakpoint.

Overall, I think skid/flip is the wrong term for this layout. Skid should be accociated with cover prep and not intertwined with drill layouts.

Re: Skid Flip Layout
  #11  
Old 04-15-2009, 12:28 PM
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Re: Skid Flip Layout

Actually, 'Skid' should be associated with the level of friction being created between the ball and the lane. no matter what layout and cover prep you use, a high friction surface like wood, combined with very little and/or short oil, will NEVER result in a skid flip reaction. The ball might flip, but certainly won't skid far enough. Certain ball characteristics including cover prep, layout, and ball dynamics are included in defining the optimal shape on the lane, but 'skid/flip' as some kind of be-all and end-all reaction is meaningless.

Instead of looking it as a layout that creates a reaction...it's the layout and coverprep that aid the ball in creating the optimum amount of skid, roll and overall hook, based on the amount of friction being generated.

Re: Skid Flip Layout
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Old 04-15-2009, 02:12 PM
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Re: Skid Flip Layout

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tye View Post
Actually, 'Skid' should be associated with the level of friction being created between the ball and the lane. no matter what layout and cover prep you use, a high friction surface like wood, combined with very little and/or short oil, will NEVER result in a skid flip reaction. The ball might flip, but certainly won't skid far enough. Certain ball characteristics including cover prep, layout, and ball dynamics are included in defining the optimal shape on the lane, but 'skid/flip' as some kind of be-all and end-all reaction is meaningless.

Instead of looking it as a layout that creates a reaction...it's the layout and coverprep that aid the ball in creating the optimum amount of skid, roll and overall hook, based on the amount of friction being generated.
Now this is an explanation that is easily understood. Thanks.

Re: Skid Flip Layout
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Old 04-15-2009, 09:07 PM
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Re: Skid Flip Layout

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tye View Post
no matter what layout and cover prep you use, a high friction surface like wood, combined with very little and/or short oil, will NEVER result in a skid flip reaction. .
If thrown fast enough, it WILL skid...
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Re: Skid Flip Layout
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Old 04-15-2009, 10:00 PM
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Re: Skid Flip Layout

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That's how I fractured my elbow this season....
Ouch, i guess it isnt for everone then. I actually was throwing around 25-26 mph on a regular basis the last couple years, but recently dropped it down to about 18-20 to try and get more accurate, didnt help much, just lost pin action, other than that there isnt much difference, maybe gained about 2 boards of hook, but im thinking my issue is overthinking everything.
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Re: Skid Flip Layout
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Old 04-16-2009, 02:40 AM
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Re: Skid Flip Layout

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tye View Post
Actually, 'Skid' should be associated with the level of friction being created between the ball and the lane. no matter what layout and cover prep you use
That is exactly right.

Quote:
a high friction surface like wood, combined with very little and/or short oil, will NEVER result in a skid flip reaction. The ball might flip, but certainly won't skid far enough.
The ball will skid/flip, just not where the bowler is looking for it to happen

Quote:
Certain ball characteristics including cover prep, layout, and ball dynamics are included in defining the optimal shape on the lane, but 'skid/flip' as some kind of be-all and end-all reaction is meaningless.
This is true

Quote:
Instead of looking it as a layout that creates a reaction...it's the layout and coverprep that aid the ball in creating the optimum amount of skid, roll and overall hook, based on the amount of friction being generated.
The core has more effect than the layout of the ball, but its all 3 phases that define the shape.

Also a ball does not skid roll hook, a ball skid, hooks, then rolls.
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