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league handicap
  #1  
Old 08-24-2010, 02:06 PM
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league handicap

Was curious as to what the average handicap is. My league is 90% of 220. I'm really sure that this is quite high, but I would like to hear what is normal. thanks

Re: league handicap
  #2  
Old 08-24-2010, 02:13 PM
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Re: league handicap

My mixed league is 85% of 225 I believe...

One men's league is 90% of 230, and another is 90% of 220.

I'm usually a fan of going 85% or 90% of the previous seasons high average, or at least close to it. But most league should be somewhere around these ranges, though I'm sure there'll be all kind of variations as well.
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Re: league handicap
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Old 08-24-2010, 02:13 PM
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Re: league handicap

Mens League - Team handicap, 90% of 1050(210*5)

Mixed League - Individual - 80% of 200
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Re: league handicap
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Old 08-24-2010, 02:14 PM
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Re: league handicap

My league is 90% of 220.
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Re: league handicap
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Old 08-24-2010, 02:54 PM
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Re: league handicap

90% of 210.

Re: league handicap
  #6  
Old 08-24-2010, 02:56 PM
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Re: league handicap

80/220

Re: league handicap
  #7  
Old 08-24-2010, 02:58 PM
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Re: league handicap

90% of 240

40 point mens league

Re: league handicap
  #8  
Old 08-24-2010, 04:07 PM
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Re: league handicap

Most leagues I have done are 100% of 220... The most competetive ones are 90% or 220

Re: league handicap
  #9  
Old 08-24-2010, 04:10 PM
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Re: league handicap

my new league does 90% of the highest average in the league, literally any bowler of any skill level can win, some of the handicaps are a little crazy but its a lot of fun and most games are competitive.

Re: league handicap
  #10  
Old 08-24-2010, 05:57 PM
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Re: league handicap

90% of 220 or 230, depending on the high average in the league
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Re: league handicap
  #11  
Old 08-24-2010, 06:16 PM
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Re: league handicap

We have all kinds of different ones...

lutheran mens is 100% of 200
commercial mens 90% of 220
JACO mens 100% of 230
Friday Mixed 90% 210

Re: league handicap
  #12  
Old 08-24-2010, 06:25 PM
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Re: league handicap

90% of 230
90% of 210

Re: league handicap
  #13  
Old 08-24-2010, 06:26 PM
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Re: league handicap

We do 80% of the difference between the two teams. There is also a minimum team average and if you are below that you get 0 pins up until you reach the minimum and there is a maximum team average and when you go over that you give 100% of those pins you are over.

It works out to be real fair for both sides, when the best teams bowl the worst teams the better team must stay clean to win, as it should be.

Re: league handicap
  #14  
Old 08-24-2010, 06:42 PM
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Re: league handicap

We do 85% of 220 in my Friday league. Up until this past year I had never had handicap before. Having an extra pin was kind of nice last year. At one point I even had 2 pins....
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Re: league handicap
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Old 08-24-2010, 07:00 PM
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Re: league handicap

90 percent of 220.

Re: league handicap
  #16  
Old 08-24-2010, 07:10 PM
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Re: league handicap

90% of 225
80% of 220 w/70 pin max (so sad for some w/120 avg.)

2 senior leagues - both now are 100% of 230 but will have to increase that for this year.
We have many who are over 230 and even a few over 235.

Re: league handicap
  #17  
Old 08-24-2010, 07:13 PM
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Re: league handicap

90% of 220
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Re: league handicap
  #18  
Old 08-24-2010, 08:53 PM
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Re: league handicap

My 2 men's leagues are;

Monday 90% of 240. Last years high was 233.

Tuesday 90% of 235. Last years high was 238 (same guy as Monday's high but as a sub with only 21 gms). Next high average was 222.
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Re: league handicap
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Old 08-24-2010, 09:37 PM
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Re: league handicap

Not sure, but will find out tomorrow when our league starts LOL


It kind of irks me that people with a 220-230 average get any handicap, but I guess I'll get over that...just wasn't that way 11 years ago...
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Re: league handicap
  #20  
Old 08-24-2010, 09:59 PM
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Re: league handicap

... and whatever happened to scratch leagues?

Re: league handicap
  #21  
Old 08-24-2010, 10:43 PM
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Re: league handicap

The mixed league I stated tonight is 90% of 220.

Re: league handicap
  #22  
Old 08-25-2010, 01:54 AM
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Re: league handicap

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoMdBuzzsaw View Post
Not sure, but will find out tomorrow when our league starts LOL


It kind of irks me that people with a 220-230 average get any handicap, but I guess I'll get over that...just wasn't that way 11 years ago...
If your league is 90% of 220 and you average 200, you get 18 pins handicap. Someone who averages 190 gets 27 pins handicap. The 190 average guy gets 9 pins more than you and that is 90% of the amount that your average is higher than his.

Let's think about a 230 average bowler. He gets zero handicap and you (200 avg) get 18 pins. You get 18 of the 30 pins difference between your averages and that is only 60%. You bowl your average of 200 + 18 pins handicap and that's a 218....the 230 average guy can shoot 219, 11 pins UNDER his average, and he still wins.

If you don't make the handicap cap high enough, you give the guys who average over the cap a HUGE advantage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mighty Fish View Post
... and whatever happened to scratch leagues?
Easier pickins in the handicap leagues....pure greed
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Re: league handicap
  #23  
Old 08-25-2010, 09:50 AM
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Re: league handicap

my mixed league is 90% of the highest average which I think is 225 this year
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Re: league handicap
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Old 08-25-2010, 01:50 PM
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Re: league handicap

my league is 90% of 220 and we have guys that get negative handicap

Re: league handicap
  #25  
Old 08-25-2010, 02:06 PM
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Re: league handicap

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mighty Fish View Post
... and whatever happened to scratch leagues?
They're still out there...

The problem a lot of bowlers run in to (and this is where I fit in) is that if I am going to commit to 30+ weeks of bowling with 3 or 4 other people...I need to really like those people. So, finding a whole team of people you really enjoy bowling with, that can survive in a scratch league...is pretty hard to do.

Now for a tournament situation, where its 1 day and done...I can deal with bowling with folks that I just "tolerate"...

Re: league handicap
  #26  
Old 08-25-2010, 02:20 PM
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Re: league handicap

Quote:
Originally Posted by RevZiLLa View Post
If your league is 90% of 220 and you average 200, you get 18 pins handicap. Someone who averages 190 gets 27 pins handicap. The 190 average guy gets 9 pins more than you and that is 90% of the amount that your average is higher than his.

Let's think about a 230 average bowler. He gets zero handicap and you (200 avg) get 18 pins. You get 18 of the 30 pins difference between your averages and that is only 60%. You bowl your average of 200 + 18 pins handicap and that's a 218....the 230 average guy can shoot 219, 11 pins UNDER his average, and he still wins.

If you don't make the handicap cap high enough, you give the guys who average over the cap a HUGE advantage.
I think its way more complex than that though Revs... While I agree with your numbers above (they're fact) its not that simple in my mind...

Folks are going to win and lose games, bowling under, at, and over their average...we've all done it...

But, in my opinion, you cant look at it in a game by game, pure numbers kind of way. The 230 bowler is at a huge disadvantage in my mind (I am there, was there this past year). The difference between a 230 game a 270 game is not that much. We're talking 1 or 2 balls that carry for you...where you get "the right bounce". You can bowl your heart out, with 7 or 8 strikes (not in a row obviously) fill the rest with spares and you've got 230. But, if one of those freaking corner pins falls, or you dont leave that solid 9...you've got 250+

It is much, much, much easier for that 170, 180, 190 bowler to get 1 or 2 more marks. They start the game with a Turkey for example....game over...unless you're gonna roll a 279. They get more lucky marks, a lucky double where they went brooklyn. I could go on and on... But, in short it is much easier for a 190 bowler to bowl 210 than it is for a 230 bowler to bowl 230...

Re: league handicap
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Old 08-25-2010, 03:00 PM
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Re: league handicap

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichHuryn View Post
I think its way more complex than that though Revs... While I agree with your numbers above (they're fact) its not that simple in my mind...

Folks are going to win and lose games, bowling under, at, and over their average...we've all done it...

But, in my opinion, you cant look at it in a game by game, pure numbers kind of way. The 230 bowler is at a huge disadvantage in my mind (I am there, was there this past year). The difference between a 230 game a 270 game is not that much. We're talking 1 or 2 balls that carry for you...where you get "the right bounce". You can bowl your heart out, with 7 or 8 strikes (not in a row obviously) fill the rest with spares and you've got 230. But, if one of those freaking corner pins falls, or you dont leave that solid 9...you've got 250+

It is much, much, much easier for that 170, 180, 190 bowler to get 1 or 2 more marks. They start the game with a Turkey for example....game over...unless you're gonna roll a 279. They get more lucky marks, a lucky double where they went brooklyn. I could go on and on... But, in short it is much easier for a 190 bowler to bowl 210 than it is for a 230 bowler to bowl 230...

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Re: league handicap
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Old 08-25-2010, 03:12 PM
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Re: league handicap

We have this very problem in my league right now.We are 90% of 210. Last years high was 221 in out league. The next was 212, and then 209. So out of 24 teams of 5 men(120) will change all the handicap for 2 men? Do you know what that percentage is?. It seems odd to give all thoes extra pins for 2 men. Now here is the kicker...that 221 guy isnt comming back. So now what do we do? Change the scale and have all that cap for 1 guy who is 2 pins over the scale? Some members are worried that I have a few high average bowlers comming in that exceed that scale and want it higher for that reason. I say you cant be pro-active and change it. We have to go off of last years and take it from there. USBC book suggests that to be even across the board, 100% of whatever scale you are on. I have never seen a tournament @ 100%, not one amature tournament. So if the top amatures that are 230+ average are not on the pro-tour for whatever reason, and bowl in the handicap leagues should never be punished for that with negative cap, or at 100%. It is called bowlers adjustment! If you cant adjust to bowl shut up and move on! If the lower average bowler cant compete and want to give me a 200+ average guy pins...feel free. If you cant beat me with the 9 pins I have now, you wont beat me with the extra if you vote up the 220 either. Think of it that way!

Re: league handicap
  #29  
Old 08-25-2010, 05:54 PM
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Re: league handicap

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichHuryn View Post
I think its way more complex than that though Revs... While I agree with your numbers above (they're fact) its not that simple in my mind...

Folks are going to win and lose games, bowling under, at, and over their average...we've all done it...

But, in my opinion, you cant look at it in a game by game, pure numbers kind of way. The 230 bowler is at a huge disadvantage in my mind (I am there, was there this past year). The difference between a 230 game a 270 game is not that much. We're talking 1 or 2 balls that carry for you...where you get "the right bounce". You can bowl your heart out, with 7 or 8 strikes (not in a row obviously) fill the rest with spares and you've got 230. But, if one of those freaking corner pins falls, or you dont leave that solid 9...you've got 250+

It is much, much, much easier for that 170, 180, 190 bowler to get 1 or 2 more marks. They start the game with a Turkey for example....game over...unless you're gonna roll a 279. They get more lucky marks, a lucky double where they went brooklyn. I could go on and on... But, in short it is much easier for a 190 bowler to bowl 210 than it is for a 230 bowler to bowl 230...
I understand where you're coming from, Rich. The way to address that is to still put the handicap cap at something over the highest average in the league, but reduce the % from 90% to maybe 80% or some other number.
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Re: league handicap
  #30  
Old 08-25-2010, 05:56 PM
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Re: league handicap

Quote:
Originally Posted by 300THIRSTY View Post
We have this very problem in my league right now.We are 90% of 210. Last years high was 221 in out league. The next was 212, and then 209. So out of 24 teams of 5 men(120) will change all the handicap for 2 men? Do you know what that percentage is?. It seems odd to give all thoes extra pins for 2 men. Now here is the kicker...that 221 guy isnt comming back. So now what do we do? Change the scale and have all that cap for 1 guy who is 2 pins over the scale? Some members are worried that I have a few high average bowlers comming in that exceed that scale and want it higher for that reason. I say you cant be pro-active and change it. We have to go off of last years and take it from there. USBC book suggests that to be even across the board, 100% of whatever scale you are on. I have never seen a tournament @ 100%, not one amature tournament. So if the top amatures that are 230+ average are not on the pro-tour for whatever reason, and bowl in the handicap leagues should never be punished for that with negative cap, or at 100%. It is called bowlers adjustment! If you cant adjust to bowl shut up and move on! If the lower average bowler cant compete and want to give me a 200+ average guy pins...feel free. If you cant beat me with the 9 pins I have now, you wont beat me with the extra if you vote up the 220 either. Think of it that way!
100% is excessive
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Re: league handicap
  #31  
Old 08-25-2010, 06:12 PM
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Re: league handicap

Its in the USBC book. As a suggestion only. But that is very excessive.

Re: league handicap
  #32  
Old 08-25-2010, 06:35 PM
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Re: league handicap

Quote:
Originally Posted by RevZiLLa View Post
I understand where you're coming from, Rich. The way to address that is to still put the handicap cap at something over the highest average in the league, but reduce the % from 90% to maybe 80% or some other number.
Agreed...there's got to be a better way. I havent been in an 80% league in a long time...so I can't remember how it worked out.

An interesting scenario to think about would be one where the league handicap number is an average of the top x averages in the league. Lets say, the top 10 bowlers in the league last year.

225, 223, 220, 219, 218, 214, 214, 212, 209, 206 = 216 Average

90% of 216 would give a 190 ave bowler 23 handicap pins.
90% of 230 would give a 190 ave bowler 36 handicap pins.
80% of 230 would give a 190 ave bowler 32 handicap pins.

I dont know if there is a perfect/right answer

Re: league handicap
  #33  
Old 08-25-2010, 09:26 PM
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Re: league handicap

80/210

Re: league handicap
  #34  
Old 08-26-2010, 12:16 AM
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Re: league handicap

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichHuryn View Post
Agreed...there's got to be a better way. I havent been in an 80% league in a long time...so I can't remember how it worked out.

An interesting scenario to think about would be one where the league handicap number is an average of the top x averages in the league. Lets say, the top 10 bowlers in the league last year.

225, 223, 220, 219, 218, 214, 214, 212, 209, 206 = 216 Average

90% of 216 would give a 190 ave bowler 23 handicap pins.
90% of 230 would give a 190 ave bowler 36 handicap pins.
80% of 230 would give a 190 ave bowler 32 handicap pins.

I don't know if there is a perfect/right answer
If you find the perfect/right answer, the baggers will ruin it. Just remember that the cap should keep everybody within the handicap system and the % is the equalizer.

Quote:
90% of 216 would give a 190 ave bowler 23 handicap pins.
90% of 230 would give a 190 ave bowler 36 handicap pins.
80% of 230 would give a 190 ave bowler 32 handicap pins.
Get to the handicap numbers using the % instead of the cap and you can see what you're really doing.

60% of 230 would give a 190 ave bowler 24 handicap pins.
90% of 230 would give a 190 ave bowler 36 handicap pins.
80% of 230 would give a 190 ave bowler 32 handicap pins.
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